The “just following orders” stage
If I were to carry out this order, I would refuse. Who cares whether she’s “legal” or not - deporting a sick child is simply inhumane. Those goddam monsters!
But yes, that’s quite right. The reign of terror in Hitler’s Third Reich was also only possible with those who carried out orders and clung to the idea that they were not responsible. Hannah Arendt described all this very well in “The Banality of Evil”.
Though I suspect a large proportion of those in ice are doing it because they like the cruelty, the ones that are doing for the paycheque fall into the category you mentioned.
Yes, there are certainly many who are just inherently evil, but I don’t think that’s the majority. I think most of them are like Eichmann: objectively speaking, of course, they are also evil, but they don’t get satisfaction from their cruelty. They simply don’t question what they’re told because it’s their job - and that’s enough of an excuse for them towards others and also towards themselves.
The banally evil are the federal workers who document the files, who maintain the vehicles used to deport children, the healthcare workers who gave up on this child without a fight, etc. Those are guilty of collaboration but most probably aren’t doing evil for its own sake.
The ICE guys making the arrest are the fucking Gestapo. There simply is no excuse to be made for police who arrest sick children, that is a more than sufficient condition to be called Capital E Evil.
People asking if this is legal are missing the point. This is wrong, what is legal is whatever the executive decides, ICE can only be solved with constitunially supported extra judicial action.
Going a little bit tangent, legal philosophy always fascinates me. My particular interest is international law and its paradox. It is by intention the terms “agreement”, “accords” and “treaty” do not mean the same thing, and their level of legality and enforcement varies.
Mhmm I haven’t thought about that side of philosophy. Maybe eventually I’ll make a pit stop there.
The cruelty is the point.
As per standard procedure. There will always be pople who will try to paint this as some kind of failure of the system. No, this is the system.
at this point we should be made aware of the names of the humans causing this human suffering. name those who are ‘just following orders’ so they can be charged at a later date when the deaths happen.
Screw that? Forcibly remove the dictator. It won’t stop. Naming and shaming does nothing when there’s no rules.
Failing to name these people and keep track of who carried out the dictator’s orders will make it more difficult to hold them legally accountable once the dictator is removed and we have rules again. It’s far from sufficient, but it is necessary.
When Musk is reposting comments saying Hitler didn’t kill the people, the public servants did, every ICE member should know their head may be responsible for these actions. The people knowing their names and reminding them of it might actually get them to stop and think about their actions
Luigi
A wonderful character from a beloved video game franchise who has no relevance to this present conversation that is taking place in a public forum
Been asking that since they started removing people from their offices. Why are media outlets not getting the names of every single agent “just doing their job” they’re just complacently watching like it’s a fucking TV drama.
Stay classy 'murica!
This is horrific… What if the hospital she was at was the only one with the technology to competently treat her condition.
Would be severely fucked up for the family to lose their daughter, in addition to being deported. Hopefully Claudia Shinebaum is able to facilitate medical care for this poor girl.
Reality really is testing my empathy lately.
There’s no excuse for this.
Okay. Don’t conflate this with me supporting ICE or the fascio-authoritarian state…BUT, lots of wealthy Americans are traveling to Mexico for healthcare because it’s cheaper, faster, and in some cases just flat out better. I hope this is the case for the kid. If it is, she may have hit the lottery when she needed it most. They get a free ticket out of the US, potentially better healthcare, and maybe a shit load of money for the government ignoring her rights.
Wealthy Americans pay out of pocket for top notch care in foreign countries. The ordinary person / family would not be able to afford that.
The wealthiest Americans fuck around with alternative medicine after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and then pay bribes to jump the transplant list domestically.
I know it makes no difference really, but is that legal? Could doctors not intervene? Could ICE be liable for death or injury incurred from deporting a citizen?
I mean, there were trials in Nuremberg eventually.
Even prior to the current political climate, police overreach in hospitals has happened multiple times. Usually involves police arresting a nurse/doctor for not doing what the police want (even if the medical staff are in the right). Medical staff loses pay for the day, patient harm does happen because of involuntary abandonment, and no punishment is metered for the police.
So yeah, doctors and nurses are quite helpless here.
Could ICE be liable for death or injury incurred from deporting a citizen?
Yes, but only if the court will uphold the law. And at that point, the punitive measures can’t bring back life or brain function.
I’m curious how deporting a legal citizen even works. Is there an exception for minors?
From the article, the family was driving from Rio Grande (in Texas) to Houston (also Texas) for her treatment, going through an immigration checkpoint, as they have done in the past but this time the entire family was detained and deported on the spot.
Generally people with family who have citizenship and noncriminals are all exceptions, they used to be called undocumented instead of illegals because even undocumented workers pay taxes in the USA. Not anymore, now anybody and everybody is at risk of deportation. They’re even discussing removal of citizenship from whoever they like, as they attempted in Trump’s last term.
It is worth noting that because of this policy the ICE is actually less effective at catching actual criminals.
They’re called “undocumented” because it is not a criminal offense to enter the country, but a civil one. Some also use “unauthorized” which is probably a little more accurate.
You end up in a “detention center”. Usually privately owned.
They deported the parents. Would you leave a sick children under the custody of a state who thinks you’re sub-human due to your skin color? They had no choice but to bring the kid back with them to Mexico.
why did they deport a family traveling for medical care? they weren’t sneaking across the border.
Remember that whole “Constitution-free zone” thing the ACLU has been harping on about for a decade or so now? The shit happening right now is why we should’ve heeded the ACLU’s warnings.
Because the cruelty is the goal.
There’s a quota.
